On one side, you have your tenured newspaper columnists. The writers who hate steroids with every fiber of their being, or at least that’s what they’ll tell you. On the other side, you have the stats-centric crowd. They trend younger, and most members of that group care about as much about steroids as casual baseball fans do about things like wRC+ or rosin bags.
Not all newspaper columnists are strident steroid-bashers, and there are plenty of statistical mavens who feel that any usage of illegal drugs is deplorable. But the generalities in the first paragraph ring true often enough to keep rolling with this, so bear with me.
Hardliners feel that using performance-enhancing drugs is cheating, and cheating is wrong. Others — mostly those who believe in numbers over narrative in all cases — point to the fact that no study has conclusively shown that PEDs have a significant enough effect on a player’s ability to swing, throw, run, see or recover to freak out every time someone tests positive or is rumored to be getting chemical help.
These opposing views explain in part why Barry Bonds is simultaneously hated and loved with equal intensity, at least around here.
There is also the battle between the common sense (otherwise known as the “eye test”) faction and those who don’t believe in speculation without proof. Currently there are enough of the former group to keep Jeff Bagwell out of the Hall of Fame.
Melky Cabrera wasn’t just playing well in the days before he tested positive for testosterone, he had been a highly productive player for the better part of the last two seasons. For that reason, along with the fact that Giants fans have been inundated with self-righteous tsk-tsks about PEDs from all sides, many people feel like the Giants should’ve at least left their options open in terms of a potential return for Cabrera. Why? Because he’d make the team better, the bring-Melky-back folks say.
Intangibles? Let’s get them out of the way
Since we don’t know how much worse Cabrera and/or the rest of the team would play based on these factors, we’ll ignore them for now:
– The benefits afforded by extra testosterone
– The challenges posed by preparing for postseason baseball in the Arizona Instructional League after a long layoff
– How upset certain players are with Cabrera
– Extra media scrutiny created by Cabrera’s return
There are several ways to assess value that take into account far more than the Triple Crown stats, and those ways come with just as many funky acronyms. The acronym that may be easiest to remember is WAR, which stands for Wins Above Replacement. 10 years ago, virtually no one talked about WAR. Now, you can see WAR in the middle of Sports Illustrated articles — the ones printed on paper, even.
One of the great things about the sabermetrics revolution is how it makes you challenge your own beliefs when it comes to the value of individual players.
(“Wait, closers aren’t as important as all the other relievers combined? Well I’ll be…”)
So with that in mind, let’s check out how much added value 2012 Cabrera would provide in the postseason, assuming he’d come back as the exact same player he was when he got suspended.
Cabrera’s 2012 WAR as measured by Fangraphs (otherwise known as “fWAR”) is 4.6. So, according to this metric which takes into account offensive and defensive production along with baserunning, Cabrera was worth 4.6 wins over the course of the season compared to a Triple-A “replacement” player. Cabrera played 979.2 innings in the outfield this year.
Gregor Blanco’s fWAR sits at a pretty respectable 2.3 — fifth among all Giants position players (Buster Posey’s fWAR is at 7.8, good for second in the National League behind Ryan Braun, who’s at 8.0 … the hardliners’ stance on Braun is part of the reason why Posey will probably win the NL MVP going away). Blanco has played 858.1 innings, and theoretically should play most of the innings in left field for the Giants during the playoffs.
Ready for another assumption? To maximize Cabrera’s potential postseason impact if the Giants had decided to bring him back, let’s say the Giants win the NLDS in five games, and then find themselves in a NLCS and World Series that both go seven games. Now assume none of the games in the NLCS and World Series go into extra innings, because we have to put a limit on this thing somewhere. That would equal 126 postseason innings for Cabrera. Based on his production during the regular season, full-strength Cabrera would earn a shade under 0.6 WAR over those 14 games. Let’s round up — 0.6 WAR it is.
If we do the same experiment with Blanco, over the NLCS and World Series he would earn a little over 0.3 WAR. Let’s round down and keep Blanco at 0.3, especially since he there’s probably no way Blanco would play against left-handed starters — even though Blanco’s lefty-righty splits are nearly identical in 2012.
Real world assumptions
You might look at that difference of 0.3 WAR between Cabrera and Blanco over the last two fully maximized playoff series and think it’s insignificant. Or, you might think that since postseason baseball is a nail-biter’s affair, any slight advantage could mean the difference between a World Series title and bitching about an error or some strange managerial decision for the rest of our lives.
But if you consider that — at best — Cabrera’s production wouldn’t exactly dwarf Blanco’s over a 14-game span, then take into account all of the concerns surrounding the intangibles listed earlier, and finally factor in the Giants’ record without Cabrera (29-13), and there appears to be some logic behind the Giants’ decision to remain Melky-free the rest of the way. You may not agree with all those numbers and reasons, but we also haven’t even brought up yet the very real possibility that the Giants might not take part in enough playoff games to bring Cabrera back in 2012.
One could also bring up Cabrera’s postseason production over 22 games and 80 plate appearances (.213/.244/.280) as a point in the Giants’ favor. However, in a statistician’s mind obsessing over small sample sizes is a sin on the level of freaking out every time a player goes a little overboard with the supplements.
In the end, it’s probably not the difference between Cabrera and Blanco that would keep the Giants from prevailing in a postseason series, it’s the difference between the Tim Lincecum of old and the Lincecum who gave up three home runs at Petco on Sunday.
That last point on Lincecum is something even grizzled columnists and tech-savvy sabermetricians can probably agree on.















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btw..I was watching a program about black loooove baby on TV. And they interviewed Jim Brown who did a interracial scene with Raquel Welch-tabboo then- in 100 RIFLES. Of course..I might add Raquel isn't white..she's Mexican American. But,I digress..my point is when they show Brown with his shirt off...compare the greatest player of the 1960's..with Vernon Davis. Uhuh. Somebody is either of another race of human..or a real tribute to chemicals. And it ain't Jim.
If somebody wants more then what I say...links,research.more of me...pay me. Bottom line. I'm not into it. I make my comments..let the chips fall.
Read my Cal Bear stuff..just dead on all year. I was picking the 49ers over Green Bay..and said..Harbaugh wanted to win that game too much to lose. Adam Meyers is a boob posts..again,accurate -lol. Still going strong..
The difference between Stan and Skip bayless? One makes ridiculous asserstions and opinions annoying the audience. And the other works for ESPN!
... so, you're saying there's really no difference? :-)
And of course Reggie is steamed that he found I had said that the niners would lose,Raider win two weeks ago.
No I'm not steamed, I'm embarrassed for you. Since you were too incompetent to provide a link to what you supposedly said, I found it myself and discovered you were wrong yet again. You did not predict an outright Raider victory. At the time I decided it was a waste of everyone's time to continue yet another of your extended, idiotic arguments so I let it go. But since you're bringing it up yet again, I'm mentioning it now. It seems like you are a mixed-up about everything. If you can post a link to where you predicted an outright Raider victory over the Steelers, please do so. Otherwise, please do us all a favor and stop using this blog like your personal scratch pad.
Sure I did.."The 49ers lose and the Raiders win?..I can smell it" That's calling it. You want to show you weaselness Reg by trying to claim some semantic ambiguity?..go ahead. I win...again.
Also Steve-its OBVIOUS Reg found my quote..and as I TOLD YOU..he left out half..He "forgot" to include where I said I can smell a 49er loss,Raider win week. Funny, Reggie admits he found it..and then you try to say I cant prove it! Cant win..and THATS what I fight around here. I know thats mostly the repub's who love guns and amno that are writing you. THEY want to rip Radnich..rip players!..hypocrites.
No, Steve thats not how it went...who was the guy that made the tweet that Lin "was going to give some lucky woman 2 inches?".. during YOUR post where you talked of that...that Saturday ( a couple of days later) I heard the Lin "chink" remark on ESPN on 1050...and posted on YOUR blog about the slur...that was a WEEK before ESPN did it AGAIN...and then the REST of the country made like it was the original. I even posted to ESPN that I had heard that slur a week earlier..they then posted a few days later admitting that. THATS how that went.
Boom! BASG just blog punked Stan, complete w/facts.
"I don’t really feel like digging through..I said I said it. And the bragging isn’t..when you back it up." I'm confused. You say it isn't bragging "when you back it up." But you aren't backing it up because you "don't really feel like digging through." If you don't feel like actually backing it up, as a result your boasts ring hollow. *** "Like Kawakami does..and Baggs will also." Haven't you complained before about Kawakami banning you from commenting on Talking Points? *** "When I was first in the country to catch ESPN,here on this blog..I didn’t hear peep of a compliment. And I know why.." I'm guessing that you're referring to the racially insensitive headline about Jeremy Lin. I saw people going crazy about that on Twitter and providing screenshots before you wrote anything. *** I allow you to post whatever you want on this site, even though many people have asked me to ban you. You're free to your opinions (as we all are), but if you want us all to crown you as the king of sports knowledge you have to expect a little backlash. How you handle yourself when people question your genius says a lot more about you than any prediction you make that turns out correct.
You left out half the quote. And,I don't really feel like digging through..I said I said it. And the bragging isn't..when you back it up. For the most part nobody would give me credit where credit is due,so I do. Like Kawakami does..and Baggs will also. When I was first in the country to catch ESPN,here on this blog..I didn't hear peep of a compliment. And I know why..
Worse is - What the fu#$ does all this football blather by a Rush/Beck/Savage - like - smear merchant/ grandiose clown/buffoon have to do with the original, well thought out, researched written post on Giants baseball by BASG? Stop throwing your shi# all over everything, it stinks.
Sorry Stan. Here is the verbatim content of your alleged "prediction" of an outright Raider victory: "Is this topsy turvy week? You know-niners lose and Raiders win?" Stan, that's not a prediction, it's a question. Sorry you can't understand the difference between: The Raiders are going to win and Are the Raiders going to win? Stan, you're not a prophet, you just have a hard time with language and facts.
You're not sensing hostility because you're right so often, it's because you BRAG about being right all the time. If you cited specific instances with links, it would still annoy some people ... but at least they'd have to admit that you predicted something correctly. Without any proof, it just sounds like you're making stuff up. You might say that you don't owe us any links/proof, but no one owes you any credit either.
Your the second person to try and prove I was a liar or wrong quoting myself..and just like the other guy had to admit I DID CALL it (what it was,I ferget dudes)..right here on BASG. Thats whats so strange about the hostility..if I was wrong,I would be ignored..but right isnt making people happy..it gets them angry!..lol..like that old saying "A prophets worst fate is for his predictions to come true"..he will be resented..and there's more to the quote,you get the jist.
39 comments.... Facepalm
Vernon Davis it is often said "He's a stud"..yeah,he's a stud alright..Like Radnich is a stud after a mega dose of Viagra!
One,last, last, for you kids..The Vernon Davis workout?..and why he can do such fantastic workouts AND lift 800 pounds? What creates such super ability's?...Do I need to explain more?
See,this the real world..THOSE kind of bodys are not natural....You cant have 4% body fat AND be that muscular..4%? Sure, if your anorexic. You dont get it?...THATS whats making the news...they ALL lie and cheat who have that kind of physique..There are no supermen...just HGH,men. Jeez...grow up..read look,open your minds to common sense. THEY DONT TEST FOR HGH..the players union "got its way" with the NFL..snicker snicker. Yeah,the NFL is feeling real bad they cant test for cheating (eyes roll) If sports writers want to be blind..
And you can quote all the trainers or other sports..IF they have that kind of body lie too. Like Arnold,until he gave in.
IF you want to be children and believe that 4% body fat and that the NFL DOES NOT test for HGH (and baseball does is laughable) doesn't add, go ahead. It makes sense to me if Vernon could use something not tested that builds his kind of body....
I did find a writer/blogger (Steroid Nation,Oct 2006 who pointed out that Vernon Davis went to Maryland..same as Shawn Merriman,and he named as suspect Vernon Davis 4% body fat as all natural. He said he's seen steroid bodies..Vernon has one. Ok,just circumstantial...but I'm still looking.
Jeez-Im sure it was white guy too locally on his show or wrote..about the Latino slant by baseball. I would give him credit..just cant remember who he was. If he reads this..yeah,I know-lol.
Stan, dude - take your medications and chill. And if you are taking your meds, ask your doc to reevaluate/readjust your dosage.
Your a real compassionate person. Authentic too!
Stan's normal response when he has zero factual support, start ranting about race. This doesn't even make any sense! Melky is being discriminated against because of race but Mota isn't? How does Vernon Davis fit into these nonsensical allegations? Is he getting favoritism because of his race?
I was saying two things. Follow-its not east for repub brains I know. First it was Radnich vendetta against Cabrera and what a sports writer had said about MLB catching 5 or 6 "cheats"..4 or 5 Latino. Mota? He's proof that the Giants might have taken back Cabrera IF THEY NEEDED HIM..they dont. Sabe? kemo?
You must be conservative, Reggie. Only a member of the GOP would come up with that kind of argument. ;)
And Steve there are other overtones..as somebody wrote-those caught seem to be hispanic in baseball. A Ryan Braun-who NEVER DID EXPLAIN..how he came TO KNOW how his urine was handled for days..how do you think he knew Steve?..Selig baseball's grandpoopah and big Brewer fan? Of course!. But, again..when Vernon Davis's agent pulled strings to stop Vernon being tested -that's a fact-..I got wise.
One last...for the VD's of the world..High School..or even Jr High in the south and midwest start with the drugs and peds. That's a fact.
Hell,the whole country..but some areas worse..
Ask Vernon's agent. You want to be friends with the 49ers..or a sports journalist? I wouldn't care if every niner hated me..they don't feed me like the truth would.
Asking a player's agent if his client used PE (or any other) drugs is quite possibly an even bigger and more silly waste of time than asking the player directly. What agent would want to ruin the thing which brings him income? It simply makes no sense, so no point in even asking.
Its asking if it's true he fought against Vernon being RANDOMLY tested for peds(its coming to me,the details)..He wanted it in on schedule,making it meaningless..and he won. If you want to put your heads in sand..fee free. Not me.
You're splitting hairs, and ignoring the real point: the sports agent wouldn't answer *that* question either -- not with anything meaningful. You'd get a song & dance at most, and "no comment" at worst. What do you expect the agent to do, throw up his hands declaring "It's a fair cop -- you got me!!" ? I daresay the average sports agent -- devious and greedy and whatever else they may be -- probably knows how to handle himself when somebody shoves a microphone in his face and rattles off questions and/or accusations.
Weren't most advocates measuring Melky vs Christian or Peguero though?
It's an argument many have made, but I made the comparison with Blanco because Cabrera's return would effectively push Blanco to the bench as the fourth outfielder. I also don't get quite as worried as some about the 24th and 25th men on the roster. Maybe I'm wrong there.
You'd like to think the last (or 2) spot on the roster wouldn't make or break you, and probably most of the time it doesn't. OTOH everybody loves an underdog, and of such things legends are sometimes made. :-)
When people say 80% of the NFL is on drugs Steve..I'm a realist..not pollyanna.
Without 'roids ped's and hgh, you only get guys as wide as they are tall..THAT look.
Not true, dude. Check out (drug tested) natural bodybuilders sometime. Hard work and careful diet can produce the kind of physique you're talking about. http://www.naturalbodybuilding.com/
Lance was drug tested too. Don't believe what your read. Believe in what you see and read. And Vernon,like Barry..is not a body builder.
So was Arnold..hours thousands of hours tens of thousands of hours. AND he did roids. I wish I could be as innocent and trusting as you Meagan. I really do..sometimes.
Um, he most certainly IS a bodybuilder. Google "Vernon Davis workout."
oop..In what you know. And I know pro athletes use drugs.
Ok..I KNOW that Vernon Davis's agent argued vehemently when it came up to allow HGH testing. This was about three years ago. If it had happened the last year or so...I would have burned into the memory all the details..and the dates. And look,the HGH body IS different..it reduces body fat so that you get the huge shoulder tiny waist look. Nobody does that without chemicals. Funny that even Arnold admitted on 60 minutes..it took STEROIDS to make him look pumped up. Ask Vernon..I would.
1. What is Vernon Davis' agent's name? 2. Do you have documentation that this agent argued vehemently against HGH testing? If you have that information, please provide it. And if you think I'd get anywhere by asking a player if he's using PED's, you are the most naive person in the entire Bay Area. It's not about being friends with people, it's a waste of time. "Oh yes, Mr. Reporter, I am currently using multiple banned substances. You got me!"
In a hurry..but it must have been in the SF gate archives or BANG..my two sources to read back then. Like I said.details like the Agents name left me long ago.. More later Steve...
I don't remember the name of the Dr's who said Lance didn't cheat..but they did. The only ass is you Rich. Go write to Raddy..even if your mom wishes you wouldn't!
With you? Nobody with a brain does. You need to be a zombie repub to agree with you.
What a clown. Does this jack-ass finally get banned?
Dude, you have zero credibility if you can't remember the source.